Level transfers from North to South
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Forum Name: National 2
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Topic: Level transfers from North to South
Posted By: Fudgepacker
Subject: Level transfers from North to South
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 16:02
| From the final tables now published by the RFU it appears that two Northern clubs will need to be level transferred to make up the numbers in Nat 2 South. I believe Leicester Lions and Hinckley have the lowest additional mileage with Leicester exempt from being transferred for a second successive season unless they volunteer. Can anyone confirm whether my understanding is correct? |
Replies:
Posted By: Friendly prop
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 16:17
I think you may be right but LL had a good season in 2S so unless they don't want to go I would suggest they may be happy there. Are you worried already? ------------- "Animo concipere non possum quo palto hoc pervease exeat." |
Fudgepacker wrote:Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 16:21
Hi FP. Just reviewing our options and likely scenarios. Based on mileage we would be next to move after LL and Hinckley. I must confess our committee members would not be averse to spending a weekend or two in the SW and Guernsey!
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Posted By: tynelad
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 16:29
| Five teams coming into National 2 (North) (2 from above, 3 from below) and four leaving league (3 relegated, 1 promoted) so does that not mean there is only a requirement for one level transfer? |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 16:33
No, it means 1 if Lions decide to stay South or 2 if they decide to return North. I suspect the RFU are contacting the teams involved, particularly LL ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 17:31
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I dont believe Lions are exempt - I think that only applies if they go back to 2 North this year and play there, they couldnt be transferred again the year after. Might be wrong but having been through the RFU regs that is how we see it. Lions may want to stay anyway |
Posted By: sidelined
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 17:34
| Just out of interest, what happens if all the Midlands clubs refuse to level transfer? |
Posted By: Cannon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 17:35
------------- Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!! |
Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 17:41
| Regulations are you have to move if told |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 17:46
Then it goes down to mileage and the club with the lowest gets forced into it, they have no choice. It happened to Towcestrians a few years ago in N3 when they were forced from Midlands to LSE and, from reading their programme, they were not happy about it!
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Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 18:35
Stato the key regulation is 13.2.11 (f) 'At the conclusion of the procedure described in 13.2.11(e) above, if a Club
subject of a Level Transfer in the previous season(s) is returned to a league
consistent with its Constituent Body or Divisional affiliation other than on
promotion or relegation, that Club shall be entitled to remain in that League for
two seasons provided it is not promoted or relegated at the end of the first
season unless it volunteers for a Level Transfer.' All clubs are automatically returned to their 'home' league at the conclusion of each season before the issue of level transfers is considered, so it applies to Leicester Lions. They have not been promoted or relegated. So they cannot be required to move again for two seasons unless they volunteer.
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 19:16
|
What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">Two things....... Firstly........Fudgepacker.....your last post is correct. I can confirm that (as we get a level transfer from the north most seasons) that so far, a team that has been level transferred has always elected to go straight back the next season, so it is always a different team that gets thrown to the wolves. It MAY all change this year, as it is rumoured that Lions enjoyed their experience (very good pack, excellent defence) and might elect to stay south, where they would be welcome. Secondly, I saw the analysis above of 4 in and 5 out in Nat2N. That however is NOT what determines level transfers each year by my understanding. From what I can see, simply put.....there are three clubs relegated from Nat2S which I ASSUME will be replaced as usual by three promoted sides, which maintains a status quo. BUT.......two sides are promoted and only one comes down. That leaves only 15 teams in Nat2S and only 14 if Lions elect to return. This is the situation which generates the need for level transfer/s. So there will be two 'northern' sides in Nat2S next season, the only question is who ? If Lions stay, I think it would be Hinckley again unless another team volunteers.....by my understanding. In some ways, the level transfer mimics promotion to level 3 from a travel perspective. A northern side would still need to travel south 10 times in Nat1 (last time I looked). Ironically, Hinckley and Lions would still have two 'derby' games. pretty sure all that is right, but am happy to be corrected
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 19:35
Agreed with all of that Darth. Hopefully we will be able to have a beer or 3 at Rugby Pk in September ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 19:51
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">Hi Steve......if I am at the Rugby Park in September I will for a change, be leaving my car at home. I will get there early and get absolutely slaughtered. Just hope the outside bar does not run out of ale. Will be so happy just to be alive and watching a good standard of rugby  .COME ON RAIDERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 21:39
Thank you, Darth Raider. I agree 100%.
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 22:25
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">You are most welcome fudgepacker.......I hope that you and all the stakeholders in your club enjoy their (first ??) experience at level 4. It is a huge challenge......a major step up.....best of luck to you....history would dictate you are much better off in Nat2N. Volunteer to go south at your peril
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Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 23:05
Thank you Darth Raider. It is indeed our first experience at level 4 in the club's 111 year history. Our fate is really in the hands of Leicester Lions and whether they decide to volunteer to stay another season in Nat2S. If not, then I don't think we will have any choice in the matter. Either way, we are determined to enjoy the experience and make new friends as we visit many of the clubs for the first time ever. And the prospect of weekends in Cornwall and Guernsey will certainly keep our dedicated band of alickadoos happy!
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 23:08
| I'm surprised Stourbridge doesn't fit in the equation they sit south and west of Leicestershire. |
Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 09:02
Based on the RFU mileage criteria, Stourbridge are 4th in line to move after Hinckley, Leicester Lions and Bournville. They are not within the 2% margin of any of those other clubs and are effectively safe from a non-voluntary transfer.
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Posted By: Tiger Dome 2
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 10:27
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So in short If lions decide to come back north = Hinckley & Bournville go If lions stay south = Lions & Hinckley go Lions get the option to stay or come back as they were forced to go last year ..... after first season they can choose to come back or stay. That's why they went this time, as Hinckley went last time so they had the choice and stayed .... now roles reversed. Correct ?????
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Posted By: Oldman1
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 10:54
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Tiger Dome 2, I think you are right. I suspect (hope) that Lions decide to stay south as their style of playing, moving the ball with a fast set of backs and speed out wide suits the better playing style of the south. But who knows anyone have any inside news?
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Posted By: Allan Foster
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 10:57
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I don't really understand the position of Luctonians. Kingsland is quite a lot further south than Hinckley. Is their absence from this discussion due to their distance from the majority of N2S clubs clustered in the SE? Just asking! ------------- An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 11:14
Aggregate mileage travelled is considered I believe ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: Allan Foster
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 11:19
Hhmnn … but of a stereotyping here Oldman1. It's difficult for the huge majority of us to comment on the old chestnut of the quality and style of N2S v N2N clubs as we don't see enough (any?) of both. Play-off results in recent seasons aren't a sound guide on which to make such generalisations If you had seen N2N clubs such as Caldy, Sedgley P, Loughborough S, and Fylde in 2019-20 then you might have a different impression. But, overall, as we've seen over many years on this Forum, it's a pretty sterile debate. ------------- An academic is someone who sees something working perfectly in practice & wonders if it will work in theory |
Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 13:08
|
What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">Luctonians get a mention each year as geographically, they appear closest. They are however, serial escapees due to the average mileage calculation. Allan....as to the 'old chestnut'........although it is far from enough to generalise, Nat2S posters do get to see one northern team a year and will likely see two next year. So we have a tiny bit more to work with. Just a personal opinion, but all of the northern sides I have watched, have been forwards based sides. I was not going to contradict Oldman, but the stereotyping he mentions is in fact the polar opposite of reality in this instance. Lions are an excellent side defensively and have a very good pack......a tremendous unit but with a few outstanding individuals. Those were their strengths this year. It is also true from the one time I saw them, that they DO try to play a balanced game and move the ball wide. It is just that (by southern standards at least), they lack pace and penetration in their backs. If they they do choose to stay south and can fix this weakness to a degree, they might push for a top 4 place (IMO). The numbers backing up this assertion are pretty comprehensive... Only the bottom 4 sides in Nat2S scored fewer points than Lions. Only the bottom 4 sides recorded fewer TBP's. If you (or anybody) wants a clear idea as to the relative strength of the two divisions, I think that taking a look at the composition of level 3 next year would be a fair indication......I think it is 14/4 now and the trend is troubling ? Lastly.....I (well) remember your side from the brief visit to Nat1 by our lads in 2013......also describing Fylde on this forum as the Harlem Globetrotters of level 3. I think you finished top 4 that year and managed to impose your playing style on some huge packs. It is a shame we could not learn from that in time as we were in many respects a similar side in playing style. You might recall our visit to your place where you put 8 tries past us ? But we scored 9 ? Quite a game. Not one for the defense coaches  Who was that big lad in your pack.....maybe skipper ?......great hands and prolific tryscorer ? |
Posted By: Saturnate
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 13:26
| Possibly Paul Arnold http://www.pgrfc.co.uk/paul-arnold-announced-head-coach/" rel="nofollow - http://www.pgrfc.co.uk/paul-arnold-announced-head-coach/ |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 13:39
No, Hinkley came south some years ago so that didn't count. Although Hinkley mileage was marginally below Lions there is a rule that says if the difference is below 2% then they are treated as equal in which case the team that finished lower of those teams has to transfer, hence Lions came south ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 13:42
I believe N1 next season will have 5 'northern' (in fact N + Mids) teams: Leeds, DMP, Sale, Mose & Caldy... + 11 SW/LSE
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 14:27
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">Thanks Saturnate......pretty sure that's right. Arnold......... outstanding rugby footballer for a long time. Islander......quite right of course.....I forgot Leeds in and Richmond out.......the long term trend still an issue methinks ?
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Posted By: Tiger Dome 2
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 14:42
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Hence it will be hinkley's turn this year ? If lions want to come back and it was lions that went last time .... This time Hinckley ???
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 14:55
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">Tiger Dome.......I think another poster mapped it out above somewhere ? The collective opinion here is that Hinckley are definitely going south next year.....the only variable is all of us waiting to hear Lions decision. It is either Lions and Hinckley or..... Hinckley and Bournville Personally, I hope it is the former.
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Posted By: harvey47
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 15:57
| If it is south for Hinckley then we will embrace the new challenge and hopefully get a local derby back . It will be sad to say goodbye to our friends in the North leaving only Loughborough students flying the flag for Leicestershire.................... |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 17:31
| I guess the big thing next season will be finance, if National sides and Premiership sides are screaming in financial pain, then lower down the crumbs that fall from the top table will be less. |
Posted By: Isithalftimeyet
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 20:43
From what I have seen of Bournville (albeit limited), I think their brand of rugby would be equally well suited to North or South
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 23:17
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">IIHTY........i was not suggesting that Bournville's style of rugby might be unsuitable to the South.....I know nothing of their playing style. But selfishly, I would like our division to be as strong as possible and in the past, teams that have been recently promoted to Nat2N and then level transferred, have struggled badly. Broadstreet and Birmingham and Moseley the most recent teams to transfer and be relegated with few points. I think Hinckley themselves only got 24pts back in 10/11 on their last visit. . That said...I perhaps incorrectly assume that Hinckley are a stronger side than Bournville, but having finished third last season, that is an not unreasonable assumption ?
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Posted By: fatbear
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 07:19
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Think you meant Solihull rather than Moseley ! |
Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 11:16
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">That I did Fatbear.......late night error......likely beer induced The Moseley boys only escaped relegation themselves by the skin of their teeth......a fair chance Rotherham would have caught them IMO.Here is a ridiculous flight of fancy to help while away the hours of isolation. In both of the next two seasons: A southern side is relegated from the Championship. Not an outrageous possibilty ? there are plenty of them. All three sides relegated from Nat1 are from the North. This is less likely I know, but there have been two in each of the last 4 yrs and very nearly three in 15/16 when Cambridge went down on games won......level on points for 13th place. Least likely. The Nat2S representative wins the playoff for Nat1. The south are 14-4 up historically and have won the last 4........so not a huge stretch ? I think if ALL of these scenarios came to pass there would be: 15 sides in Nat1 would be from the south. The promoted Nat2N side the only northern rep. I think there would be 6 northern sides in Nat2S. Although this exact scenario is unlikely to be reached, we have been moving toward it for some years now.....in increments. The implications for travel costs in the respective leagues (i think you would agree) are quite bizarre ? I suspect that all of this should have a bearing on deliberations for future league structure, though I confess I have no idea how, I have been following the league structure debate on the Nat2S status thread. I have not contributed myself but might now dip my toe in. My own concern is quality. |
Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 13:36
| I can confirm that the NCA has now contacted the northern clubs who could reasonably be expected to transfer seeking 2 volunteers. They have asked for an early response. |
Posted By: Oldman1
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 14:06
| Fudgepacker, can you confirm the clubs contacted are the four (Hinckley, Lions, Bournville and Stourbridge) are those contacted? |
Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 16:11
We (Bournville) have not been told who else has been contacted, but I know that last year it was the three you mention plus (I think) Luctonians. I cannot imagine Stourbridge or Luctonians will agree to be transferred voluntarily, so my working assumption is that it will either be Lions and Hinckley or Hinckley and Bournville to move. We would prefer to stay in the North as it gives us a local derby against Stourbridge and we also know Luctonians well.
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Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 10:02
| Hinckley have not received an email yet |
Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 12:03
Hi stato, our email arrived at 11.29 on 7 April and was sent to our Chairman rather than me as Hon Sec. We have already responded. Perhaps Hinckley's email is lost somewhere in the system?
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Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 12:23
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Checked with the Chairman and he hasnt received it. Who knows as I am sure we are meant to get one!!
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Posted By: Fudgepacker
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 14:03
Definitely, stato. By our calculations, Hinckley are first in line for the move. He may wish to contact Alan McCreadie at the NCA who is communicating with the clubs involved (or most of them!).
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Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 06:23
| we have now received it |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 15:42
Pity Luctonians are not on the list looks like great countryside, depending on time of the season combine it with a Canal Hol  ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Courgeoust
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 16:26
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Some great countryside and canals (Grand Union) in Leicestershire not quite up north - more North Midlands but very nice all the same.Super clubhouse Hinckley though natives can get feisty in the nicest possible way. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 20:30
Hopefully everything is sorted for a meaningful 20-21 season - WRFC centenary is early September. I am sure there will be a large Raiding party for the Trips to the midlands as well as returns to our favourites in North Devon and the Channel Islands. Here's hoping everyone survives, you never know I might get back to work befor I am due to retire. Mind you, I told my wife she would get £90k if I died before retirement, she told me I'd better get out to do the shopping ! Good job she doesn't know about the £150k life insurance!------------- RAID ON |