Why do the RFU give clubs money?
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Topic: Why do the RFU give clubs money?
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Subject: Why do the RFU give clubs money?
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 08:42
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Why do the RFU give clubs money? The RFU give the Premiership money for one reason only and that is to have extra access to their English qualified players for internationals. The important word here is extra as they already have a right to them for internationals and a fixed number of training days under World Rugby laws. The RFU are paying for extra training time in the hope that this makes them better players, capable of winning the Six Nations and World Cup nad therefore bring in extra money into the game. In recent seasons this plan has definitely failed. My calculations show over the 8 year current PRL deal this is costing £550,000 per international player. It is immaterial to the RFU whether all 50 play for one club or are divided across the Premiership, they are still paying it. The beneficiaries are the Premiership clubs as a whole - and I understand they pool this money anyway. £ 220,000,000.00 full amout of PRL deal over 8 years £ 27,500,000.00 per year 50 players called up for England training on average = £ 550,000.00 per player per year And if we break it down to per international - say 12 a season, then it is £46k approx. That is additional to the RFU match fee. By giving clubs this amount of money it has created wage inflation - and wages are the biggest cost to any club. The current PRL deal means that England, unless under special circumstances, have to pick players from the Premiership clubs, which gives them a strong bargaining chip. People claim the the Premierships deserve this money as they are the ones who are developing the players - but this isn't a clear cut argument as a lot of the player development may have taken place at other clubs - we all know examples of how a player developed by being on loan to a Championship club. But do those clubs receive any additional revenue for player development? No is the simple answer. Therefore should the RFU money to the clubs be split in a more complex way? When a player represents England, should all his former clubs receive some compensation for his development, rather than his existing Premiership receiving it all? It would be a fairer distribution of money allowing those clubs who play a part in a players development to receive some compensation for their efforts and encourage other clubs to further English players development in preference to overseas players as they may eventually receive a financial benefit in the future.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Replies:
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 09:50
| My understanding from recent reports from Francis Bacon is that the RFU can't afford to give ANYTHING in the next PGA. Doesn't mean that they will follow his fiscally sensible advice, but the current PGA can't be seen as anything other than an utter failure. |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 09:52
Yes. ------------- keep the faith |
Richard Lowther wrote:Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 10:21
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Its biblical. Mathew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have
abundance; but from him that hath not, shall be taken away even that
which he hath. Apparently, after the time of tribulation, we reach the Kingdom of God. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 10:41
Will there be sandwiches? And can you confirm that the Kingdom of God hasn't gone over-budget on it's West Stand? I so hate disappointing surprises. ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: LHTT
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:45
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Article in the Guardian today says Kingdom of God RFC has gone into administration after being served with a winding-up petition by HMRC. ------------- Irritating Offspring of the word unite. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:58
Amen
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:06
I'm sure Kingdom of God are a rugby league side? Jesus captain with 12 others playing around him. But they don't have to worry as there will be a second coming. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: LHTT
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:22
 ------------- Irritating Offspring of the word unite. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:31
You can't always get what you want. It'll be a long and winding road even if we can find someone to carry that weight. Yesterday, all our troubles seemed so far away; it even looked like good news week but someone did drop a bomb, well and truly contaminating the atmosphere. As Queen said: “You can’t turn back the clock you can’t turn back the tide Ain’t that a shame ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 16:15
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I read the first post and started drafting a serious reply. Then I saw the other posts and thought - don't bother! Thanks for the laugh (s).
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Posted By: LHTT
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 19:51
Gotta laugh Halliford or..... ------------- Irritating Offspring of the word unite. |
Posted By: SK 88
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 20:03
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RFU invest less in pro game as a proportion of their revenue or profit than anyone else and wonders why it has bad results. Personally I'd love the RFU to go back to only having access to the players 6 days before a test match and actually getting to see them play for their club, I'd love for people to see what would happen if the clubs did fold their academies up to what they actually want to run because the RFU wasn't paying them to run uneconomically big ones. I'd love the clubs to test regulation 9 in court and most likely win a massive chunk of their season back. I doubt the England first crowd would like to see the mess at Twickenham that produced. Baron's report is interesting reading. Principally it highlights how the RFU executive have sold off their matchday hospitality income to Compass & their TV revenue to CVC. This will leave them with no money for the amateur game at all. But people will, in all seriousness, think that this group is competent to do anything in future and should get their hands on even more family jewels to flog off. The RFU needs total reform and effective dissolution into at least three totally separate organisations, one to run the amateur game with new regional groupings taking over the county boards, one to run the national leagues (which already exists in the NCA really), and one to take over running of the pro game in its entirety with PRL & Championship groupings being folded into a new organisation that runs the professional game as a coherent entity. Ironically it was one of Baron's predecessors who was proposing something similar in 1997, but that was kyboshed by the county unions refusing to yield their power. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union-brittle-revives-amateurism-in-plan-for-another-new-era-1288347.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union-brittle-revives-amateurism-in-plan-for-another-new-era-1288347.html
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 21:37
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England's women have a new better deal. 'The RFU says other "enhancements" include improved match fees, better opportunities for off-field development and agreements around "revenue sharing if business targets are exceeded".' ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 22:52
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Everyone surely knows Jesus plays Association Football, not rugby. Jesus saves! (But Sterling scores from the rebound). ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 23:10
| When i first saw that, it was Charlton scores from the rebound! Not saying it’s an old joke, but …. |
Posted By: PropDad
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 06:53
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 07:49
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Thank you for digging out that article. It's interesting that the financial meltdown was predicted so long ago. Barron is also scathing of the current financial mess. We have to ask ourselves if both former CEOs wanted change and wanted to head off impending financial doom then what is stopping them? The only insight I have is a brief chat with the head brass at the RFU when I suggested that London should have its own CB. They largely agreed but said it was difficult and too many vested interests were involved.
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Posted By: RedPete
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 08:12
Ditto the academies (or are they included in the money you quoted Richard)? Either way they are failing to improve the England team and, dare I say it, to the detriment of the community game. ------------- There is truth and there is untruth, and if you cling to the truth even against the whole world, you are not mad. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 10:04
England have some excellent young players coming from the academies, playing in the Premiership, the fact that Jones chose not to use them, for example giving one cap to George Martin then binning him, was an example of the folly of the RFU having no idea. Maybe Borthwick will play it differently. Jones was only interested in his own cv, he had no interest in building an England team for the future, he didn't want to bump into another good England team when he was back in charge of Australia again.
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Posted By: Albert Fishwick
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 15:02
It’s definitely St John scores from the rebound. ------------- That's easy for you to say. |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 16:49
But wouldn’t that be an own goal? Im sure St John was on the same team as Jesus.
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 19:21
Me too, but just trying to drag you all into the 21st century... ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 19:26
Ian wasn't though. Nor Callaghan, Thompson, Hunt, etc etc. (Neither were the 1971/2 Coventry City team he also graced). But I'll stick wi Sterling. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Dagfish
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 00:01
Lorimer, from what I remember!
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 00:30
Peter Lorimer only scored screamers from forty yards, so, nope 😉 ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 14:28
There was a banner at the 1977 Cup Final crediting Stuart Pearson with this but I'm sure he wasn't the first.
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Posted By: JohnLowe
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 14:56
| Potentially exciting time of the year with signing and transfer announcements yet all we are getting is old soccer jokes. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 15:23
| I think all the club officials are away on holiday................................it's oh so quiet. |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 15:36
------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 18:57
Back on trackish Springboks include overseas players in their World Cup Squad, do England or is it just 6 Nation's embargo? "The overseas players who will assemble in Pretoria are outside backs Cheslin Kolbe and Willie le Roux, centres Damian de Allende, Andre Esterhuizen and Jesse Kriel, scrumhalves Cobus Reinach and Faf de Klerk, flyhalf Handre Pollard, hooker Malcolm Marx, No 8 Jasper Wiese, utility forwards Franco Mostert and Jean-Luc du Preez, loose forwards Pieter-Steph du Toit, Kwagga Smith and Jasper Wiese, locks Lood de Jager and RG Snyman, as well as props Vincent Koch and Trevor Nyakane." ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 20:52
| So - only 19 then - slight difference in policy!? |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 20:54
| I get why players want to be honoured for remaining in the country and available for extra training windows(which the RFU pay for, but you could argue that maybe picking the best players might just give you a chance. |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 21:02
The Boks are trying to include Kleyn who has played for Ireland but now available.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2023 at 13:59
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Francis Baron's view in TRP today is that there is no money left for PRL! James Haskell says ring fence, franchise and lift salary cap. Calls for resignations. Asks why CVC deal was not put to an SGM. Front page and double page spread rips CVC deal apart. All in all a right bu55ers muddle. Questions experience of DCMS appointees, an admission of poor management. Worth a read if you can find a copy, ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2023 at 15:20
| I think Will Carling painted the right picture all those years ago, a privileged few messing about with other peoples money, mind you that's caught up with Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP by the sounds of it, so who knows, maybe one day someone will have a look at the RFU's books. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2023 at 15:27
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In Will Carling's day, the old farts were the county reps. At least they were elected, even if nobody offered to stand against them. Now, control sits firmly with the unelected and non-accountable executive. Yes, we could theoretically replace them at a General Meeting, but that requires 100 clubs to actually call one, and far more to carry a vote - especially as the executive hold the proxy votes. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: JohnLowe
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2023 at 16:04
| Regarding proxy votes, I can recall attending an AGM many moons ago and I was sat next to a couple of service reps who, when voting time came, produced a huge wad of votes from each military establishment who ran a team. I doubt if things have changed since then. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 14:12
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Latest gimme, gimme. This time from Exeter "Exeter chief executive Tony Rowe says the authorities running rugby union must look into finding ways of increasing funding available to clubs. London Irish went into administration last week, while Wasps and Worcester were removed from the top flight earlier this season after money issues. Rowe bought a stake in a hotel at Sandy Park last December to help pay off government-backed Covid-19 loans. "It's been a financially challenging time for all of us," Rowe said. "But what I guess it has shown is just how underfunded the game of rugby itself truly is. "That's something not only clubs have to address moving forward, but it's also for the likes of Premiership Rugby and those who run the game in this country to really look into. "We can't afford to stand still in any shape or form. For the game to grow in the manner we all want, we have to be looking at developing every aspect of it, both on and off the field," he told the club website. As well as selling its 75% stake in the hotel - which the Chiefs say was a £40m project - the club have also seen high-earning star names such as Stuart Hogg, Jack Nowell, Sam Simmonds, Joe Simmonds and Dave Ewers all leave the club this summer. Exeter were profitable before the Covid-19 pandemic, largely because of the successful conferencing and events side of their business at Sandy Park. Rowe feels that stream of funding will continue to return and help fund the club. Exeter's women are preparing for a Premier 15s final later this month while the men - who reached the semi-finals of the European Champions Cup this season - aim to return to the Premiership's top four after missing out on the play-offs for a second successive campaign. "The squads we are assembling for the new season are hugely exciting and clearly with an eye to the long-term future as well," Rowe said. "We have never been a club who look for a short-term fix, we've always had a vision of where we want to go, how we want to get there and a realistic time frame of how long that will be. "Our success in recent years has been built around having those solid foundations and that is what we will continue to do as we look to attack next season and beyond." ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 14:48
If Premiership clubs are underfunded - on the back of £220m RFU followed by £200m of CVC (and I understand Exeter got more than the other clubs) monies, then what does he think about the 2000 other clubs who got not a bobbin from the RFU but still manage to keep going each week, every year? What value for money have the RFU got for their £220m? That never seems to mentioned in these type of arguments? The clubs seek more without proving they are worth more to the game. The sheer reality is that the men's game hasn't grown and its receding in terms of player participation - at all ages/levels, support and community involvement. Not to mention a decline mainstream media interest. Only the growth of women's rugby is masking these fault lines and I am not confident that there is a structure in place that is sustainable in the future. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 15:06
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Tony Rowe's words just highlight the Premiership clubs total lack of understanding of the situation. Just ignore the financial mess they are in just hold out their hands for more money. Ring-fence the lot of them and keep them away from the rest of the game.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 15:37
| Do you really think the Championship has the ability to produce international standard players that could win a world cup, the Premiership did. |
Posted By: JohnLowe
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:00
| It would be interesting to know how many of our squad that won the World Cup in 2003 ever played in the level below the Premiership. If none then TB’s comments might be valid; if quite a few then they are not. No doubt someone cleverer than me will have all the stats. However I think the relative strengths of Levels 1 and 2 are a lot closer now than they were then! |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:22
| I think Rowe is now realising that if you want to be competitive in Europe, it costs a lot of money and he might be running short. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:29
It's fair to say that in 2003 academies were not what they are now, Martin Johnson for example began as a colts player with Wigston, one of the two clubs that became the Leicester Lions, he went to New Zealand and played iin their junior All Blacks, had he chosen to stay over there, he would probably have been an All Black. He went to Tigers as a young man and grew with the first team, never went near an academy, don't think Neil Back did either. Looking at todays likely England World Cup players, most will be from academies, some played as dr's in the National leagues to get experience of adult rugby. Jack van Poortvleit and George Martin both played for Leicester Lions in Nat 2, but we could hardly claim "we made them"
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 19:03
The various stages in a players career include: Mini/Youth School Colts Premiership first talent trawl First experience of the game at a Community club Polishing in (National Leagues) & Championship Premiership in various guises Not sure where Academies fit in
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 19:55
https://www.leicestertigers.com/team/our-academy" rel="nofollow - Our Academy | Leicester Tigers
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 21:07
Trevor Woodman was at Launceston before heading north to Gloucester.
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 21:41
What are the financial benefits of an England club winning the European Cup? There is prize money but I can't find a reliable recent figure and then I presume being European Champions helps in recruiting sponsors and asking for increased amounts from them. But on the other hand clubs have to have bigger squads with the resulting increase in costs - salaries, NIC, and travelling. So at the end of the day, how much PROFIT does it really provide? ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 22:11
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The only number I can see was in an article in the Express from 2019, which suggested the 2018 winners got €600,000, with €400,000 to the runner-up. https://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/1125799/Champions-Cup-prize-money-how-much-will-Leinster-Saracens-get-earn-rugby-news" rel="nofollow - https://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/1125799/Champions-Cup-prize-money-how-much-will-Leinster-Saracens-get-earn-rugby-news ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 22:13
Good system from U-15 onwards. If my son's experience with the Saints is anything to go by, it's a very harsh regime that saw some quit the game and occasionally go to American Football Where do the U-6s go?
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 08:41
Leicester Lions
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 11:05
As always a strawman argument. I said nothing of the sort because I couldn't care less.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 12:21
I was trying to highlight the impact on a player at various levels. I believe football transfer percentage payments go quite far down the career history so that mega million transfer dribbles down If rugby emulates football there'll be a discussion to be had about who developed the player - but that's a long way off ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 12:28
You wish to deny players the opportunity of playing at the highest level, you wish to deny clubs the chance(a very slim one at the moment obviously due to the PRL intransigence) to play in the top flight? Your jealous hatred of everything Premiership is beginning to affect your thought process, Jersey and Doncaster have stated they want to play in the league.
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Posted By: GreenThrough&Through
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 11:23
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I've been thinking about the idea of franchising and the supposed benefits that are put forward. One question i have is, financially, what's the difference between a promotion and relegation league and a closed shop franchise? Income isn't sufficient to cover costs in the current situation - where is the evidence that by franchising, income will suddenly see a HUGE increase (and it will need to be huge given the millions lost each year by every Premiership club). There seems to be a belief amongst some that by closing the shop and franchising, investors will suddenly come pouring out of the woodwork with open wallets and blank cheque books. But nothing supports this idea. As an example, the 6 Nations is a closed shop. Not so long ago yet in better financial times than now, RBS' sponsorship was coming to an end and the 6 nations demanded an increase in value to renew the deal. RBS offered a similar amount to their current deal. 6 nations committee thought they knew better, said no thanks and effectively went out to tender. No-one else came close to matching what RBS had offered, let alone what the committee wanted. So they returned cap in hand to RBS to accept what was offered. RBS told them that was off the table and instead offered a lower price, albeit the highest the 6 nations could get. They signed. Financial belts continue to be tightened and will likely continue to be so for a while. Rugby doesn't have the profile of football and unfortunately never will. The result being investors/commercial partners will always look to football first to spend their £s as they are likely to receive a better return. Increased central funding is not the answer. The game is significantly bigger than a dozen or so clubs at the top of the tree. So where costs outstrip income, and income isn't going to increase enough to cover those costs, you HAVE to cut costs. It's the only solution. The biggest cost to nearly every business is its' people. For professional rugby to survive in England, players are going to have to accept that wages will be lower - a lot lower. If they don't like that, go find another job.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 12:11
| We don't know the details, but there was talk of promotion and relegation, no mention of ring fencing any of the leagues. |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:11
The arguments put forward for a ring fenced league generally fall into groups. 1) On the field - without the threat of relegation teams are freed from the risk of failure and can try something new and play open running rugby without fear. There is little evidence that this happens in practice. 2) Off the field - knowing you are in the league for X period then you can budget accordingly as you are not constantly fearing relegation and the loss of income. Again little evidence that club owners change their financial mindsets to make the game more financially stable. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:19
| There is no justification for ring fencing any league in rugby except financial, it is counter productive to the game as a spectacle by not allowing reward for success, without promotion and relegation it is no longer a competition, which is the very definition of sport. |
Posted By: clieves
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:33
Ben Kay, Will Greenwood & Paul Grayson all played at Waterloo
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 14:23
Yet another strawman argument. At
absolutely no stage whatsoever have I said I wish to deny players the
opportunity to play at the top level. I said I would ring-fence the Premiership
clubs to keep (those that run them) away from the rest of the game. There would
be absolutely nothing to stop any players joining teams in a ring-fenced league
as they do now in an almost ring-fenced league anyway. Your desperation for an argument really is incredibly childish and can be witnessed on the very many boards on which you post and by the way your views often change from board to board depending on who you want to argue with at the time. I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:12
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Danny GrewHuckleberry gained his first cap while still at his home club Cov. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:13
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Oh for heaven's sake. Danny Grewc ock. Ridiculous. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:24
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In the male (and now female) game the "promising" youngsters are steered away from teenage clubs at 15 and in many cases pointed at specific colleges for their 6th form years. For them to be spotted at that age a lot of their natural talent has already been brought out by clubs (down to levels 6 or 7 in my area), the academies have a monopoly on those from certain cb's so they can't really be said to be doing massive amounts pre 18. Last year the national u18 girls cup was decimated as in Aug the a new "performance college league" sprung into existence with girls playing in that on a Wednesday told not to play for clubs on the Sunday. The same year the girls age grades changed from 13,15,18 to 12,14,16,18 reducing u18 numbers by a 1/3. Most of the clubs usually making the regional finals struggled to even get a team out and the results list was just a list of HWO and AWO. To save a handful of players from overplaying the majority got far fewer games and lots dropped out of the sport. Now with the demise of the Prem clubs the rfu have had to pick up the DPP's and academies for at least LI & Wasps so let's see if having the rfu instead of prem clubs running the extra coaching allows players to keep playing with their mates and their mates keep playing. As an interesting aside, unlike prev 3 year deals where all women's prem 15 teams had to run a "centre of Excellence" (u18 academy) Ealing have not been allowed one and the rfu is running one out of Oxford Harlequins using the staff of Oxford College which was the Wasps Ace college
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Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 17:07
100%. Acadamies have destroyed boys youth rugby and are now doing the same for girls. All started by N Melville and similar private school types at the RFU prioritising schools and academies over clubs. Now the counties are busily endorsing this approach by hiving out their U16’s and Colts teams to the local academy coaches. So Surrey and Sussex colts are now run by Quins!! Absolutely balmy and prevents clubs developing a sensible player pathway based on U16’s, Colts and county if you are good enough. Shameful and all paid for by our RFU. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 17:29
You deliberately try to miss the point again, if a club wants to join the Premiership and their players want to play in the Premiership, they have to have access, ring fencing would deny that, exactly as it does now. No-where did I talk about players leaving their present club to join another club, again you jump to the wrong conclusion. You clearly hate the Premiership and you clearly want nothing to do with it, we get that, but what you propose is not what everyone wants and you seem unable to see that, promotion and relegation makes for competition, remove that and as the boss of Jersey was quoted as saying "what's the point of winning the Championship".
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 19:59
I stand by everything I said in my earlier message and you adding to your childishness by now claiming to know what I do and don't think and suggesting you speak on behalf of others ("we get it") only reinforces my opinion. I say again - I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same.
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Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 20:46
| I have to say I have had a contretemps with WEvans in the past but I do agree with him I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make at times tigerburnie. But hey let’s all be civil |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 21:08
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Very clear really I don't hate the Premiership and vehemently support promotion and relegation in and out of all the leagues. |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 21:50
That is an interesting view but one that not all will necessarily share. The pre-18 work by Academies is often dine by local coaches known to the players who work with the schools and colleges. Yes, there is some movement to 6th Form Colleges, sometimes AASE Colleges but that is often where rugby provision at U18 level is limited. I have yet to be convinced that Clubs can di better than Schools at Under 18 level. There may be one or two that stand out but my experience is that the quality of coaching and level of performance is higher in Schools than in Clubs. Implementing a player pathway at Club level is more ch about transitioning the player who doesn’t join an Academy and doesn’t go to University. They are the ones we need to keep in the game and they will often include the late developer. Im thinking here of Charlie Gossington who played as a Junior at Chipstead, joined Esher at age 18 in our Development squad and went in n to play over 100 matches at Level 2and 3 as well as being captain. Do not get me on to the loss of players who don’t continue playing at Uni!
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Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 09:53
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 11:54
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I'd say it's preferable that children are taught rugby by teachers rather than coaches. In reality that only happens for the lucky few. So for the lads in our U13s it's Dave and me when he can't get away from work. |
Posted By: SK 88
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 12:32
The RFU got an absolutely terrific value from it last time. Firstly it was not £220m, that figure was theoretical and linked to revenues. When Covid struck the RFU used that clause in a way it was never intended to beggar the clubs by slashing their payments. This is why every Premiership club needed a covid loan and the RFU did not, they just pushed their responsibility away. The RFU receive:  An academy system which is producing heaps of players, many of which the RFU mismanages which sees them play internationally elsewhere. Roughly 6 weeks of extra training camps on top of regulation 9 (1 week pre season, 1 week pre AIs, 3 weeks within 6N window, 1 weeks around summer window. Ability to plan training & fitness load of players in EPS Extra weeks rest in 3 different blocks (pre-AI, mid-season & post 6N) for EPS (on top of training) Ability to get clubs to select players in a certain position, or clubs lose EPS money without losing requirements. Ability to access club medical & fitness data on player's in the EPS. Ability to hold additional camps early in the week (where players are then available for clubs on the weekend).That's just off the top of my head. It's not a gift in any way, and selling our soul to the RFU is an absolutely core reason why the game has stalled in recent years. Just look at the constant complaints about players missing league matches de-valuing the league. THAT is what the deal pays for. Both the Premiership & to a lesser extent the RFU are actually seeing consistent income growth well above nominal inflation, with the Premiership clubs offering less and less games the ones we offer and becoming more and more efficient at producing cash. The non-sense fact free doom mongering pedalled by the Rugby Paper is massively damaging. Why wouldn't people on this board or in the clubhouse believe it? No one is pushing back with the actual facts which support the counter narrative. The PGA should be considered separately from the P share model which preceded it and which causes a lot of the other issues people hold with the Premiership which I agree with.
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Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 08:22
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SK 88, the facts are available at Companies House. The filed accounts I have reviewed for Premiership clubs show a bleak picture of clubs only being propped up by their owners. ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 08:33
| Are they any better/different for Championship clubs? |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 09:20
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I believe some of the semi-pro clubs towards the bottom of the Championship run within budget. But without TV money, rugby can only ever be semi-professional. With TV money, it can pay a journeyman wage. What it cannot do is pay six, figure salaries to journeymen. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 09:44
This is the case in most pro sports, isn't it? Certainly the F1 team I worked for wouldn't exist at the level it is without the owners money. Chelsea FC would have gone bust last year without a new owner.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 10:48
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In F1, some are owned by brands, who roll it into the marketing budget. The four car brands Ferrari, Mercedes, Alpine and Aston Martin, plus Red Bull and Alpha Tauri. Though Aston Martin, it may be a case of a rich owner supporting both the brand and the F1 team. Haas made money from machine tools, but I don't to think he uses the racing to sell more. Williams, McLaren and Sauberhave existed as independents for many years, often generating enough money from sponsorship to provide an income for the owner - though none are now owned by the founders. Williams and Sauber are owned by VC companies. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 12:51
One of the main differences of course is that there are always people willing to buy Premier League football clubs whereas practically nobody would consider buying a Premiership rugby club. Whether as a supporter you would want some of these football buyers is of course an entirely different matter.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 13:09
| This thing with Wrexham being bought by movie stars has started something as well, my son in law was told St Johnston FC think a Yank with Scottish ancestors is going to buy them, sad really. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 14:28
As long as it's not Trump, eh? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 14:41
He's not got any money, he just begs off his followers, his golf courses in Scotland are close to bankrupt.
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Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 14:54
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Maybe in the boys game (I don't know it well enough other than a bit about LI's pathway. But in girls there are simply not enough players yet that 35 can be taken by a "centre of excellence" and not leave unsustainable club numbers. Hampshire has a large girls participation but none of Basingstoke, Winchester, Havant or Trojans (the clubs with u18 girl's) could field a 15 aside team last year due to Quins. Berkshire and Oxfordshire managed to scrape together 33 non Cofe players combined to play a Berks clubs vs Oxon clubs game. Middx were no better Bucks managed a combined chesham/Aylesbury team playing shorthanded and similar at Buckingham The boys pathway is arguably bad, replicating it for girls within a much smaller cohort is disasterous
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Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 15:23
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https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-board-and-presidential-roles-ratified-at-agm-2023" rel="nofollow - RFU Board and Presidential Roles Ratified at AGM (englandrugby.com)
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 17:01
No s4it? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2023 at 12:59
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From the Tigers club site, bit of an insight into getting kids into the game more in the future. Leicester Tigers are pleased to announce a new community tag rugby initiative in partnership with global insurance broking & risk management firm and Premiership Rugby title partner, Gallagher. The programme will use tag rugby to:
Tigers staff will deliver the initiative to junior school year groups from September 2023, with local schools having the chance to participate in Gallagher Tag Festivals hosted at their local rugby clubs. Any child who joins their local club will earn their school a place in a prize draw, with the selected sides getting the opportunity to play on the pitch at https://www.leicestertigers.com/mattioli-woods/mattioli-woods-welford-road" rel="nofollow - Mattioli Woods Welford Road on a Leicester Tigers match day. “We’re delighted to work with Premiership Rugby title sponsor Gallagher to expand their support of rugby through this community initiative,” said Mark Davies, Chief Revenue Officer at Leicester Tigers. “Our tag programme is one of our longest-running initiatives and pivotal in turning children from playground enthusiasts into rugby fanatics. Virtually every current Tigers player’s journey started in a playground somewhere and with the continued support from everyone at Gallagher we are looking forward to unearthing the next generation of Tigers starlets." Dan Hemingway, Community Manager said “With the support of Gallagher we can continue to ensure that the game of rugby is being played in as many junior schools as possible throughout our regions. We know that the route to becoming a rugby fan, more often than not starts with getting a rugby ball in your hands. The game of rugby has so much to offer, and we want to support local schools in developing rugby as a corer part of their physical education programme.” Chris Noah, Managing Director of Gallagher’s Leicester office, added: “We are thrilled to be involved with this community campaign that will see many local children have the opportunity to get involved with rugby, possibly for the first time. Team sports like rugby are really important in building confidence along with fitness and camaraderie so making the game accessible to children at a young age is really positive for the local community.” If your school would like to be involved please contact Leicester Tigers Community Rugby Coach Oliver Devonport – oli.devonport@tigers.co.uk |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2023 at 15:29
Thought it was the Marlboro Lite company for a minute ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2023 at 20:16
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Not just Tigers, the Lions are getting in on the act too(I'm sure lots of rugby clubs are doing their bit in their own areas too) https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=858871789245146&set=a.250862006712797" rel="nofollow - Facebook
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Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 17:33
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I'm sure this subject has been discussed many times before in Clubhouse Chat, but to what extent are clubs paying players in the lower tiers of the game? If the game in England is ever going to restore any sense of fairness in funding, it seems to me important to get an idea of what kind of financial scrapes clubs are getting into at levels that well before there is any chance of them competing for the top 2 tiers. I ask now because I have just heard a Champ bigwig saying he did not think clubs were allowed to pay players below Nat 1, but within an hour I saw an email suggesting that there is a club at Tier 4 which is financial difficulty with a players' bill of £22,000 a month. I think the Champ chair is wrong, but I'd be very interested in anonymised info about clubs at Tiers below the Champ and Nat 1 and what sort of wage bills are being paid now - quite a lot less than pre-pandemic, I assume? ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 20:04
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There is a very low limit, above which you lose the pitiful RFU funding. But there is no ban on paying player. However, most clubs are operating on paper thin budgets. I do not know how much my club plays, other posters know exactly how much every other club pays. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 20:26
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 21:51
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The RFU has stated levels of payment to players at Levels 2-5. They are open on the RFU website. If you pay more than that level then you lose RFU funding, not much unless you do a lot with your CB, as my Club does. Clubs at Level 6 and below are not supposed to pay.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 22:27
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I do know what my club pays and it’s a lot less than I read everywhere but I also know what every other club plays coz I read it on social media and coz someone writes it it must be true£££ ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2023 at 14:52
I suggest you go to Havant where you will be able to find out answers to all your questions. Sadly though all wrong answers.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 13:35
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After many decades supporting England, I'm now truly embarrassed to being an England supporter. The Premiership clubs suck millions from the game whilst employing foreign journeymen in key positions. Those with potential are snuffed out by foreign players who whilst having greater skills, are stifling the development of England qualified players. Time and time again authors on this board have written of their frustration at the RFUs management of the English game. Columnists from The Rugby Paper to broadsheets have expressed their concern - but nothing will happen because of the power ceded to the professional players. Their selfishness is the root cause of the weakness of the current squad. ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 13:49
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A double edged sword though, our younger players are being coached and mentored by these " foreign journeymen" One of the reasons some clubs took on more overseas players was so they could field a half decent side when England take all their best ones out and we are left with half a first team to entertain paying fans and try and win games. Hopefully this won't be a problem going forwards and we will see an end to International matches clashing with league games, something soccer irradicated decades ago.
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Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 15:00
A little bit ironical when you say England takes their “best” players out. In light of Englands present form that could be an advantage and let some younger players show what they can do. Mind you will that ever happen for them in England set up
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 15:52
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To be fair to the premiership clubs, and that is not something I say very often, the U20 Six Nations has often been scheduled on the same weeks as the full six nations. Which means that at the point the clubs need cover, their talented youngsters were not available. Now, there are two solutions, the first, is simply to move the U20 tournament away from the main one. The second, is not to have Premiership matches clashing with the 6 nations, and if you do both, the U20 players can play in the mickey-mouse cup (but only if the RFU can get Disney to sponsor it). ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 16:00
Perhaps we'll see some of the mentored players in the Premiership Cup. It's probably the only game time they'll get. ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 16:12
| Tigers currently have ten players in the world cup alongside both first choice 9 and 10 injured, so the youngsters will be getting some game time. Even when England come home(which I think we all know might be quite early) the players still have to have rest periods, so we might get our first team back around Christmas time. |