Ireland v South Africa 

Not sure how the draw pans out, but if/when Eng don't go all the way, I hope Ireland do at least!

The way the draw will pan out this October, only (a maximum of) 2 of the current world top 5 (Ire/Fra/NZ/SA/Sco) can make the semi-finals...

Can't split the best of the RWC proper.

SA had a soft run from their first game to the semi final last time.

No one has that this time.

France look awesome. But Ireland 2 times Grand Slam winners should make a game of it. 

Highlights ITV4 11.35 tonight 

France looked good. France scored five tries in second half. 

La Rochelle and now France U20’s

Yes but when France are 0-17 down at the world cup, I'll think of this thread.

Third-place play-off South Africa U20 vs England U20 @ 3:30pm

Final Ireland U20 vs France U20 @ 6:00pm

Ireland France is live on ITVX should you want to see how far ahead of the rest they are.

England should be able to raise a U20 squad where all the players can hold down at least a bench position in a Premiership side.

Surely, if you are good enough to play even Fiji U20, you can face Newcastle, and not be playing Hull, or Harrogate.

But, the Premiership sides are clogged with older foreign players, who are seen as safe bets.

(1) Copying JIFF regulations is a start

 "JIFF quota rules are increasingly squeezing squad places. Nevermind the average requirement of 16 JIFF-qualified players in every matchday squad, from next season, a maximum of 14 non-JIFF players, including any player who signs on a short-term ‘medical joker’ contract, will be permitted in the overall squads of established Top 14 sides."

(2) Allowing foreign based players to play for England

They only need to one thing. Disband.

I think it is worth pausing and bearing in mind the cyclical nature of international rugby form. Aside from the All Black's and perhaps the Boks, the last 20+ years of international rugby has been punctuated by ebbs and flow between different nations. 

Warren Gatland's Wales were the bright light in northern hemisphere rugby for a time, as were Brian O'Drsicoll's Ireland in full flow. Likewise, Woodward, Johnson and the hardened and wily England squad of 2003 orchestrated the still one remaining world cup win for a Northern nation. Will Borthwick's relatively young squad repeat this feat? I doubt it. However, a place in the RWC final is nevertheless definitely within reach, and that is no mean feat at all, having taken the reigns so recently.

It is worth reminding ourselves about where French rugby was just 4 years ago - 2019 (I'm not a Guardian reader by any stretch!). However this is a decent read if people have forgotten recent history:

If England don't go all the way this time, I genuinely hope that Ireland or even France do. As an England fan, i fully accept that this is most likely France and Ireland's time to shine (as witnessed in their most recent and titanic 6N clash). England will rise again and lift the trophy, regardless of what we all think of the RFU and Premiership setup, remember it is cyclical, and arguably what keeps us guessing and what makes the RWC such a good competition every 4 years.

Much like the recent U20 competition, isn't it great to see northern Hemisphere nations dominating the world stage. Whatever else, I think we should be grateful for that.

Such willfull self sabotage led to the quick departure of Martin Haag, John Fletcher, Peter Walton, Russell Earnshaw et al and with it years of experience and the foundations of England's future. Don't look to the future to join the dots, look to the past.

Other 6 nations teams how to run the game !!!

France U20 outstanding , 3 years in a row 

I'd add the Irish way of running kids rugby won't work for England.

Their U20s had hardly played any URC and are mostly the output of the Dublin school system feeding the Leinster academy.

Very different to England or France 

The England team were premiership academy players on loan to National League clubs, or London Scottish. So some went from playing Stoubridge to playing France.

Very few had Premiership experience.

It's a really, really complicated question to answer. There are also two levels to the issue - the strength of a country's national sides, and the overall health of the game at all levels - and although they are undoubtedly linked, they are not the same. For example when England won the World Cup in 2003, the game at local club and school levels had already started to experience difficulties and when Laporte moaned correctly about the French side in 2019 the game at all levels below was (and still is) absolutely thriving. 

A lot of the things already mentioned are very relevant, especially the point about things being cyclical. Things come and go and we will be strong again - maybe even this autumn. It's actually very difficult to compare England (or many other countries) with France as it goes way beyond the RFU and the FFR to the role of the government/state and it's policies towards virtually everything. France is absolutely sport mad - way beyond any country in the UK, even though that may be hard to accept for some. To some extent it's because in the UK, soccer just absolutely dominates and dwarfs everything to the detriment of other sports. It's just not like that here and in large areas of France rugby or other sports are actually more popular - that gives a much more level playing field. The general public are much better educated and informed about all kinds of sport. One possible factor for this among many is the fact that there is much more top level sport on terrestrial TV and available to everyone. The RFU's decision to sell virtually everything to pay for view TV has been a disaster for the game, and it's meant that most ordinary kids have no exposure to the game at all. I'd change that. In England, that all plays into many people's perception that rugby is game only for posh, rich people. In my experience that is definitely the case (the perception more than the reality) and the RFU need to widen the game's appeal. I know that Eddie got a lot of stick for his comments on the English public school system and top level rugby being dominated by privately educated players, but I and many others agree with him. The question is how to change that, but the TV thing would be a start. That is in no way a dig at the private schools who do an absolutely fantastic job of coaching and developing players - they exist and they do what they do very well....however it's not great when players from this background are massively over represented at national level. 

Now in France, private schools as in the UK do not exist, and rugby has no such image as a middle class sport - it's seen as a game for everyone from all backgrounds. They are picking from a much wider pool. Interestingly inter school sport does not exist in France, and it is up to clubs to develop players in all sports. 

Also here in France the state is much more involved in all areas of society - and people expect it to be so. There is no real drive to reduce the role of the state - people pay quite high taxes (they're always moaning about it) but in return they expect very high services and facilities. The French state believes that access to first class sports and cultural opportunities is a right for all and is not dependent on an individual's ability to pay. Hence art galleries, museums and even cinemas are subsidised quite heavily, and sports facilities are provided free of charge to clubs at all levels - including the Top 14. My club in Fed 2 (level 5) has 2 floodlit pitches, one with a 1000 seat stand beneath which are 10 changing rooms, a fully equipped weight room and a medical room. Cleaning, maintenance and groundskeeping are also provided free of charge by the municipality. They even give us the use of a council house for players to live in. It's like that in all sports at all levels, and I believe that the French government puts over 6 times the amount of money into sport than its UK counterpart. Now none of that is anything to do with the FFR or the RFU - it goes way beyond that - and when you think of it like that it's a wonder that France isn't further ahead in most sports. 

All of this makes it impossible for English clubs to compete with the French in financial terms, and it's actually a catastrophic error to even try - it'll lead to more Wasps/Worcester situations. It is entirely possible for a country to build a world beating national side while the league within that country is not comparatively as strong - look at France and soccer. 

To sum up, if I was still involved with the RFU I'd advocate:

•  swallowing a bit of pride and accepting that the game just isn't that big in England and the top clubs will never compete with the French in financial terms. 
• Abandon the massive support given to the Premiership clubs and let them sink or swim. 
• Use the money to make the game more accessible to all and widen the base. 
• Try everything possible to change the game's image and turn it into a sport for the ordinary working person. (maybe the most complicated and certainly something that will take a long time)
• Be happy when our best players are offered the chance to go abroad and develop there - and let them still represent the country.

Now how you do all of that is the real issue, which it would take me too long to go into here. Rant over.

 

If you are in the County U15 side and on the pathway to the professional game, the private schools offer you a scholarship. So you can stay at your local comprehensive - which has sold its playing field, and play for your club with a basic weights room - or you can go to Wellington / Dulwich or Millfield, on full board, have top-notch teaching, and access to multiple pitches, a fully equipped gym and hobnob with sons of the elite, who might offer you a job later - with all fees paid.

What is a parent to do?

Fortunately, or unfortunately, my daughter was never that good, but a lot of the girls she played against were.

Interesting also that French schools don't play each other with no inter school sport, I would have missed that if it was the same over here! Perhaps most different is what you say about the Government and sports minister/department having far greater involvement in the nations day to day experience and access to sport and more specifically rugby. I can't imagine that over here, and wonder how it would differ depending on which party was in power - another can of worms!

Thanks for the overview though, there are a lot of factors in there that I can see now differ greatly from the model we have here, and that I hadn't considered. 

I think I can answer that one, they have got rid of Eddie Jones, so the job is already done. Can Borthwick and the rest of the Leicester Tigers Premiership winning coaching squad perform a miracle on the pitch? well that is the big money question.

However, there is a decline in these youngsters going on to play senior rugby with hardly any third XV’s about.

University is often blamed as only the elite players get BUCS games. However Durham University have now entered a side at the bottom of the league pyramid. Some Durham and Northumberland clubs are worried they will be whitewashed but the University is promising the team  will be made up of lads who just want a run-out on a Saturday and a few beers. If that is the case they might return to their clubs and be willing to play second or third team once they’ve graduated.

That’s just tinkering around the edges and not really what I’m talking about here, which is the fundamental and inbuilt differences between France and England. But on your point above, have you ever wondered why he’s had to take almost the entire Tigers coaching team to work with him? If you speak to a few people that know him you may be enlightened a little. And there’s no room for Alex Mitchell, in mine and many others’ opinions the best attacking 9 in England while we have 2 from one club, one of them being  way, way past his best…..and a 36 year old prop from the same club making a return to the squad, again way past his best….Hmmm if we do well, I’ll be the first to say hats off, but it doesn’t look great to me. 

Interestingly, in our area the independent schools (Epsom, Reeds) se their players going to Cobham and Reeds Weybridge. Esher's focus for Junior players is on the local Academy and State Schools - Three Rivers, Esher High and Brooklands. That has resulted in a strong group coming through to play 2nsd and 3rd XV rugby but not necessarily the quality to play 1st XV rugby at National League level where the links with Whitgift and Exeter Uni are more beneficial. 

That said, our Under 14s were the top team in Surrey last season and our Under 13s are close to the top so they can compete at that age. The issue will be their development through to adult rugby and the attrition that girlfriends and University brings.

Play football/basketball with your friends on your doorstep or travel 45mins on the bus to play rugby? 

Sure you know Paul my comment was very much tongue in cheek, but to simplify it right down, young kids are not going to start playing rugby because Leicester Lions got promoted, indeed few are likely to start because Leicester Tigers won the Premiership, but if England were to win the World Cup again and with proper marketing, some might join the sport.

Most kids in minis and juniors have a direct connection to the local clubs, either their parent/s played or their mates go. To make anything attractive, it cascades down, it does not grow from the roots up, despite us thinking it should.

Presumably this population of over 4 million does have access to football pitches though, grass or 3G? Is it actually a case of lack of green space/pitches, or as we all know, a lack of understanding, desire or interest in rugby when football is the national sport, and sadly always will be? 

Maybe rugby 7s or touch rugby on reduced sizes pitches would get round the issue and serve a purpose/be more appealing in the built up urban areas. This might expose far more youngsters to rugby, who then might pursue playing into full contact 15s.

Radical perhaps, but wouldn't it be nice if the London boroughs for example trialled an initiative whereby available grass/3G pitches etc were divided more evenly between rugby and football use, thereby negating the apparent lack of pitches/facilities to grow rugby in the inner city? Fanciful I appreciate!

Chris - You are Southwark Rugby, I assume you still have the youth sides.

How many youngsters turn up?

Very pleased for Millwall. I played there in 2001 and it was awful then.

At least playing scrum half behind our pack was no fun..

We trained on some sort of horse paddock on the Isle of dogs.